Starscream (TFP) (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
starscheme) wrote2014-05-11 09:14 am
starscheme) wrote2014-05-11 09:14 am
HMD?
I'm late to posting this. THINGS HAVE BEEN WEIRD the last few weeks idek.
I feel like I've been having a particularly difficult time hitting the right tone at Box but. IDK. Con-crit encouraged, obviously.
I feel like I've been having a particularly difficult time hitting the right tone at Box but. IDK. Con-crit encouraged, obviously.
no subject
Then when I rewatched the show in whole, about a year later, I found that a lot of the things I had written for SS were not as supported by canon as I had believed. In a way I'm glad I wasn't the only one who seems to have encountered this. I know a couple people who marathoned the show when it was finished, whose first interpretation matched my *second* interpretation, so I think for me it was an airing issue and seeing the showrunners suggest traits without conclusively proving them.
If you want I can go into detail about episodes / scenes and stuff, but if not that's cool too, I understand that because I'm not in a game with you I really don't have any horse in this race or whatnot.
Thank you for your time!
no subject
no subject
I feel the traits SS *seems* to display are largely circumstantial re: how he is treated? Megatron's first conversation with him in the show is a death threat (re: using the dark energon on him). Later, Starscream repeatedly warns Megatron about the bridge, including urging him to flee from the explosion.
Since Megatron attacks him over disobeying a command to wait, I can't see SS's goal as to seize power so much as to seize personal safety, which is difficult considering Megatron later kills 3 of his clones without effort (and badly damage a fourth). I don't think he displays convincing combat skill against many people (a few vehicons he takes by surprise, Cliffjumper who is wounded and held down), his clone cannot penetrate bulkhead's armor and dies with no fight whatsoever. He barely holds his own against Arcee even with a free shot and if not for Bee's intervention would have died there too. The terrorcons take three, maybe four shots to go down, against Megatron's single shot.
Megatron is a huge, powerful guy who deliberately wears down his self esteem (to KO, too, in Tunnel Vision esp), threatens to kill him many times, beats him into the hospital and then swings by to gloat, and by Patch makes it so Starscream isn't even safe in his own mind. The Autobots aren't an alternative for defection, as Arcee is (understandably) upset about Cliffjumper's death, Ratchet will not work for free, etc. He tries alliances on with everyone, including Airachnid and MECH, and astoundingly when I rewatched, he was not the one to betray them.
His reason for killing Cliffjumper and trying to kill Wheeljack being "Megatron" is actually really important? It takes a long time for KO's walkabouts (driveabouts) to get him riled, he "strongly suggests" KO seek his permission, which is mealymouthed. it's only when KO doesn't call him lord, that relates back to Megatron being in charge of (and battering/threatening) him that he reacts (awfully, I'm not saying it's excusable behavior).
You call him a little backstabber but I don't see any evidence of that? He is sycophantic in a large part because Megatron seems to demand it (again, check out every time KO decides to be casual around Megatron and note Megatron's very selective response to KO and SS alone - a response he doesn't visit on the others, even the ever-disobedient Dreadwing, who he eventually kills after having praised him for his disobedient initiative). I think a lot of the baddest shit comes from basically being fucked up relentlessly by Megatron, and Knock Out's gradual progression into similar behaviors seems to bear that out.
I do think that a rewatch would be very beneficial, in the same way it was beneficial for me. I've babbled long enough, I'm sorry and thank you again!
no subject
One, that I don’t think any of the interactions between Megatron and Starscream, on both ends of the exchange, are reasonable or healthy ones, and I think it’s perfectly fair that any given individual might be made uncomfortable by their relationship and interactions. I think they are two very bad people who have a lot of history, both together and separate of each other, that is hinted at but never properly shown, which means there’s several thousand years of their lives that we can only speculate over.
Two: I know none of the material was really mentioned in your second post at all but I want to point out ahead of time that I do not really consider WFC/FOC or their tie-in novels to be relevant because despite them technically being the part of the same alignment, converting WFC and Prime into the same continuity was kind of a last minute decision on Hasbro’s part and WFC Starscream was not really written with Prime in mind, at all, or vice versa I suppose because iirc the games came first.
ANYWAY.
I do appreciate your input, but I have actually given a lot of consideration to this angle of viewing Starscream that you have described in the past, and ultimately that’s what I’ve always found it to be: An angle. It’s an interpretation of the evidence we are provided in the show that I think mostly compounds on a lot of TFP’s overall writing flaws, and lack of any meaningful backstory when it comes to the Decepticons. It’s perfectly valid to view him that way if that is what you desire, but I don’t think it’s any more valid of an interpretation than any other. If you consider all of the character summaries and the promotional material that involve describing Starscream’s role in this tale, I don’t think it’s what the show runners were going for at all, and it’s also not really what I personally have any interest in playing. It’s very unlikely that even with a re-watch, my interpretation would shift in that direction either, since I have watched the series through again since that has become a popular way of reading his character, and did not find the canon evidence to support that view. In fact I found more and more reasons to think the opposite.
What are some things that we absolutely can say Starscream is, objectively? He is crafty. He relies on scheming and plotting to get things done rather than brute force. He is incredibly sycophantic, and extremely expressive and reactive, as you say. He’s also capable of being a perfectly competent agent of the Decepticon cause, and is an excellent flier. As far as what the show creators were actually trying to say about him, I think you need only to look at the first clip episode: “He needs to decide if it’s Megatron’s job that he wants, or his approval.” That so succinctly sums up how I interpret Starscream right there I literally could not have put it better myself.
Yes, I agree that there may be some angle of self defense to some of Starscream’s actions, since he is also a known coward (justifiably so in many cases) and self preservation is important to him. BUT. I adamantly do not agree that it is his primary driving force throughout the whole series and, frankly, operating under the assumption that that is his sole motivation is very uninteresting to me and leaves a lot of unanswered questions about him.
Consider how Starscream behaves for the brief amount of time that he’s convinced that Megatron is actually dead, when he so sure he is wholly he’s free of his presence permanently. He’s overjoyed, not necessarily because he is free of an oppressor, but because he’s now the top dog. Killing Megatron isn’t just about killing Megatron, it’s about getting his job as a result of that. He wants to lead the Decepticons, and personally I interpret that desire to lead to come from this flawed idea he seems to have that, by leading, he will automatically have all of the respect and prestige that Megatron had in the same position. Look at how he demands that Skyquake bow to him, once he resurrects him. Look at how furious he gets when the troops are not thrilled that he is now the one calling the shots. He walks off and laments that it’s not worth having such troops if they are not willing to commit “unspeakable evil” in his name. He has a puffed up sense of self importance that revolves around telling other people what to do and is flummoxed when getting to be the leader doesn’t live up to his expectations. Later in the same episode, Optimus even tries to reason with him, and reminds him that he doesn’t have to be like Megatron and offers a peaceful solution, and Starscream says he will only agree to such an arrangement if Optimus will bow to him!
When he finds Megatron floating in space, his primary fear over Megatron still being alive is that it will jeopardize his spot as top dog. Think about what he says there: “Everyone believes you are dead... and who am I to disappoint them? Master...” and then he yanks the dark energon and viciously tells him to stay dead. The entire time that Megatron is out of commission there after, Starscream is ONLY concerned with finding a way to take him off life support because he sees him as a threat to his command. The other Decepticons, Knock Out included, are constantly reminding him that he’s not REALLY in charge until the big guy kicks the bucket. Whether or not it is morally justified aside, that is text book back-stabbing betrayal right there. His leader is barely alive, and his primary interest is in making sure that he stays dead because he likes, and has always dreamed of being, the guy in charge.
We don’t get to see much of Megatron and Starscream’s history together, but there’s implications that this power struggle they have with each other is pretty consistent. When Airachnid informs Megatron of the presence of the Harbinger on Earth, Megatron makes note of his suspicions that Starscream has been up to his ‘old tricks’ again, which, along with the general image of every Starscream in the franchise of which the writers seem to like to ride off of as common knowledge, implies that Starscream’s attempts at overthrowing him are a very common occurrence. Megatron never beats up Starscream unprovoked. The first time is for disobeying a direct order, the second is in response to his coming back to life and finding Starscream did a really traitorous thing, and the third is in thirst when he accidentally kills off half of Megatron’s army. Is beating him a reasonable way to respond to that behavior? No. Is it awful? Yes. But it’s not ever actually that common of an occurrence. He does not seek Starscream out on a regular basis and look for excuses to maim him. Even in the one episode where he was actually very seriously going to kill Starscream, he changes his mind. This is very significant. Megatron knows how Starscream works all too well. He knows Starscream is a competent second, a capable agent, and that they share the same goals for the future of Cybertron. It’s why he chooses to spare Starscream over Dreadwing. It’s why he affords Starscream a lot more forgiveness than he does most of his other agents, because he knows that by keeping him fearful he can also keep him in line AND benefit from his services. Which is terrible and manipulative! But he’s not just mindlessly picking on Starscream for no reason.
With regards to his physical capabilities: No, Starscream is not quite a heavy hitter. In a one on one fair fight, he does not always have the capability to win which is why he uses sneaky and underhanded tactics to win. Power levels in TFP are incredibly inconsistent too, so I don’t particularly like to rely on those as hard evidence, or if they DO need to be cited, you need to do while considering what kind of end plot the writers were trying to reach, because characters get different levels of plot armor depending entirely on that. For example! There’s an episode where Megatron has trouble taking down a single Insecticon, one on one, at full power. Compare that to the fact that later in the series we see Autobots (AND Vehicons, when Airachnid leads them to attack the Nemesis) taking droves of them down with single shots, and compare THAT to the fact that in Orion Pax, Megatron is able to take down every single Autobot and thrash them quite soundly on his own. It doesn’t line up. The physical capabilities of each character vary SO widely depending on what is necessary to move the plot forward or make an interesting spectacle.
So how do you gauge a characters individual strengths? Smokescreen is quick and adept at utilizing the phase shifter, Megatron and Optimus and Bulkhead have pure strength to back them up, Arcee is agile, and Starscream is cunning and deceptive. Whether or not he would have died fighting Arcee in that episode, you also have to consider that he did hold his own against her VERY WELL for the majority of the fight; he tricks her into freeing his hands AND gets a free strike in on top of that by hamming it up and playing off the preconception that he is a whiny coward, beats the crap out of her, and very gleefully taunts her about Cliffjumper’s death the entire way through in a very cruel manner. Arcee gets the better of him only after she’s suddenly fueled by a surge of writer-injected righteous fury. In the second season (iirc) Starscream effortlessly takes out several Vehicons when he sneaks back onto the Nemesis in a very efficient and brutal manner.
As for the clones, the plot basically treats them as cannon fodder. The first one we see wasn’t trying to puncture Bulkhead’s armor at that stage. I think it’s pretty cut and dry there that he just gives him a warning scratch across the chest and then looks pretty smug about it as he starts to gloat about Cliffjumper AGAIN, which provokes Bulkhead into attacking him. Megatron taking out a whole group is not very surprising, but you also have to consider that the clones lack plot armor like the true Starscream does. Citing their fragility is a bit of a stretch because from a writing standpoint that episode couldn’t have ended with a bunch of Starscream clones still running around, therefore they had to be removed from the picture somehow.
In conclusion, I honestly feel that listing all of Starscream’s more terrible actions as solely being because of Megatron’s influence does a disservice to both characters. But yeah. I hope that clears up why I do things the way I do for you, and why I respectfully have to say that I’m not likely concede or agree with that interpretation, THOUGH I TRULY DO respect your right to view things that way. It's just not for me.
no subject